Packards … and other Classics Too!

• In this episode special guest Gunther Hoyt (below), Director of Colonial Classic Car Club and a prominent member of the Old Dominion Region of the Packard Club joins our show. In this episode we discuss the Motorsports discipline called Road Rally (also known to some of you as “touring or gymkhana”), we’ll also dig into what it’s like to own a classic car in today’s computerized, digital era, as well as getting to know Gunther a little better.!

and much, much more!

Crew Chief Brad: [00:00:00] Break fix podcast is all about capturing the living history of people from all over the auto sphere, from wrench turners and racers to artists, authors, designers, and everything in between. Our goal is to inspire a new generation of petrol heads that wonder. How did they get that job or become that person?

The road to success is paved by all of us because everyone has a story.

Crew Chief Eric: Hey everyone. Crew chief Eric here. And with me today is special guest Gunther Hoyt, director of the colonial community. Classic Car club and a prominent member of the Old Dominion Region of the Packard Club. Today we’ll be discussing the Motorsports discipline called Road Rally, also known to some of you as touring or Jim Kana.

We’ll also dig into what it’s like to own a classic car in today’s computerized digital era, as well as getting to know Gunther a little bit better. As some of our listeners might recall. I spent the better part of a week last year playing journalists and cameraman for the classic car club tour in Virginia, where I was fortunate to spend a lot of time [00:01:00] and laughs with Gunther.

With that, welcome to Break Fix.

Gunther Hoyt: It’s good to be here and I hope I can shed some light on our amusing activity.

Crew Chief Eric: Absolutely. So let’s get into it, right? Our, our membership and our fan base is all about motorsports, right? And so motor, the definition of motorsports for us is really anything with an engine and a way to steer it.

So that could be boats, it could be airplanes, it could be cars, but within that there’s a multitude of disciplines and most people recognize. The more popular ones be it circuit racing like formula one or net oval racing like nascar autocross kart racing drag racing Etc. All the stuff that’s publicized on tv But what most people don’t realize is scca for many many years has an officially sanctioned discipline known as road rally Which is very close to exactly what you guys do in the classic car club.

So I wanted to start off by Having you describe what it is You to go on tour, to go on one of these [00:02:00] road rallies, what the expectations are and what, why someone would want to go on that.

Gunther Hoyt: Sure. Let’s speak about classic car packer club. It’s about the same activity and usually has the same structure.

Number one, what we try to do is organize around a hotel. that is convenient. And that means easy parking, quiet road, so that we don’t enter a five lane crazy highway right away. Usually we try to find a place that has some historic charm to it. And from this base hotel, we fan out to interesting sites, be they the Museum of the Horse in Middleburg, or a vineyard, or in some cases a battlefield, usually Civil War.

On some occasions, we specialize only in a particularly charming stretch of highway, sometimes [00:03:00] with some real hill climbs, and lots of curves, and other times just rolling flat hills. We create a log book for these tours with very carefully laid out routes and mileage indicated, but we do not have the discipline of a classic rally with clocked stops and precision log books and all the rest of it.

This is a bit more casual, relaxed, cowboy style touring in the age of the, uh, the good iPhone. Of course, you can, you could just put Google Maps on and that will take care of your logbook and tells you pretty much where to turn right, left, and go straight. It was particularly fortuitous that Alan had organized your group as part of our Spring Tour, because it gave us a whole new dimension, including looking at the opportunity to drive on a track.[00:04:00]

I will say one of the high points of my touring career was in a 1929 Hoop Roadster Packard. Uh, racing around Lime Rock, so it’s not like we are allergic to this type of activity. Quite the opposite. It brings out the boy in all of us, certainly the boy

Crew Chief Eric: racer. And I can, I can, I can attest to that because I remember when, during the tour last year, when you and Alan swapped cars and we had, we had probably the slowest drag race I’ve ever been involved in between, you know, Your super eight and the thing

Gunther Hoyt: That’s right That’s right.

And that’s part of the charm too that people trade cars To to give each member an opportunity to try out your car and we exchange ideas about driving characteristics And mechanical condition and give each other tips on why don’t you try this or try that? So there’s a great deal of technical exchange as well as driving [00:05:00] experience, trying to come up with interesting events during these tours.

Since we tend to tour mostly in Virginia, after as many years as we’ve been doing it, you tend to run out of traditional, uh, sites. So, Alan did a brilliant job of recreating the whole event, and uh, including your, uh, your organization, and then of course, inviting ourselves into many very elegant and beautiful horse farms.

That’s the kind of extra that, uh, Doesn’t occur on every tour.

Crew Chief Eric: Speaking of that, we did a lot of restoration shops, which I’m a big fan of. I, it’s kind of funny. I attribute my new found interest in what I call restoration shows because of the tour I went on with you guys, because we went to white post because we went to some of the other ones and saw these cars in various different stages of their progression and their restoration.

And for me, for whatever reason ignited a new found passion. And so I’ve been really [00:06:00] diving into a lot of those and actually have a better eye of critiquing them now, having talked to some of those professionals. So was that always something that was part of the tour or was that something that Alan brought?

Gunther Hoyt: No, actually a restoration shop. is frequently a component, not always, because sometimes they’re just not available. But when, when we are in an area as rich in restoration activity as northern horse country, we take advantage of it. And each visit is an eye opener. Okay, hit that right on the head. The BMW, okay, the 327, a fabulous car that we saw at White Post.

White Post specialized in the Chrysler, big Imperial Chrysler limousines. That’s something special. They specialize in the beautiful Lincolns of the 55 56 period. It broadens our horizons, uh, because it’s not necessarily classic car restoration, [00:07:00] but four wheel automotive restoration. And to see a 327 BMW with that incredible story of the American officer bringing it back home, why, that’s, that’s a new dimension, and it’s a wonderful dimension.

Crew Chief Eric: So let’s take a moment to define what is a classic car. So by by the official definition of your group, I know there’s very specific rules on what is and what isn’t. And I know you and I debated. We played the whole does this count? Does this not for a while there? So for our audience, what what does constitute a classic car?

Gunther Hoyt: The Classic Car Club, when it was founded, attempted to define it as a coach built car, that is a car with a wooden frame and metal over the wood, which is the traditional coach built concept of manufacturing fine, fine cars. Until 1939, this was by and large the, the, the way a fine senior Packard was manufactured.

But at this point, [00:08:00] Cadillac had already moved to all steel construction for his famous 60 special, which is considered a classic. What I’m trying to say is that we’ve been nibbling at the edges of the definition for many, many years now. And today, the, the town and country from the post war period, the Chrysler has also been Officially permitted to be called a classic by the classic car club, and we have ventured pre 1924 into some of the older almost brass era cars also, but we’re still trying to maintain 1924 1939 1940 as the traditional perimeters, with a few additions on the outriders on the outside.

I can. Tell you one thing, that the Town and Country decision came with a great deal of pain and anger. Those who were happy made just as many people very, very unhappy. People have strong opinions in this club. I would say [00:09:00] the safest definition is the wood framed. body that is called a coach built car.

Crew Chief Eric: And I’ve, I’ve gone back and I’m sure many other people will too. If you visit the classic car club of America’s website, there’s actually a whole listing of cars that qualify for entry into the organization. And it’s, and you and I had talked about this where you can petition for vehicles to be added to the registry.

So long as they meet certain criteria of specialty or limited quantity low production runs, etc But they do have to be of the utmost as you like to phrase it luxury. They can’t just be a sports car You couldn’t that’s

Gunther Hoyt: right

Crew Chief Eric: You couldn’t say I want to put a vw beetle in there or or a lotus seven or something like that It has to be a very particular and special car to be added to that registry

Gunther Hoyt: Well, i’ll give you i’ll give you an example, especially in europe.

There’s a a bit more activity In recreating very famous cars that were destroyed in the war or were lost. Uh, Horch [00:10:00] comes, comes to mind as a brand that had a few models that were just bombed to smithereens in the war.

Crew Chief Eric: And for those that don’t know, Augustus Horch was the founder of Audi. There’s a whole, there’s a whole backstory on that in an article I wrote called what’s, what’s in a name.

So you can search the website for that.

Gunther Hoyt: That’s right. So for example, these, the, there were a couple of models that were built. From a historically correct chassis and then built with wood and metal and historically as accurate as possible, but there are 100 percent recreations, but those kinds of cars, we obviously would consider classics.

People do this with Bugatti every now and then, certainly in the Duesenberg world and in the Rolls Royce world, many, many times have the bodies been changed over the period of a long history. 1928 Duesenberg limousine is suddenly a Murphy Roadster. This happens.

Crew Chief Eric: Let me ask you this, because I ask people a lot of times the question, you know, [00:11:00] why that car?

Why this car? And the answer oftentimes is summarized best by, it’s the cars that you grew up with. That are the ones that you gravitate towards and I know I’ve heard that from several people in the classic car club that that’s why they have their passions and Packards and Cadillacs, etc. So it makes me wonder, is that why you’re invested in the Packards?

And also, what would be the appeal for someone in today’s generation to latch on to these vehicles as you as you see things moving forward?

Gunther Hoyt: Yeah. Well, I would say the generation one back that was motoring and active, even as young children, pre World War II, they could legitimately say, Oh, I grew up with a Packer 12, or I saw a Super 8, or I saw a Duesenberg, or, or they participated in the real world and, and would then Have these cars after World War Two, and that’s how the classic car club was founded.

Okay, but the car club was founded in the very [00:12:00] early 50s, and those people were children or very young men in the 30s and early 40s. So they remember these cars and then we’re able to buy them and get them running again, in many cases. Our generation is one beyond that. So, we are going a little bit more by historic record or our father’s love of these cars.

In my case, my grandfather’s had Packards. So, I grew up with the love of Packards. The, the lore of Packard and the stories of Packard and how good they were and how elegant they were and the family photographs and movies in some cases that exist. Uh, and I think that’s true for many of the other members who are at least one generation removed from the actual driving experience of the car in its heyday.

Today, there’s That’s a whole new issue. How do we excite a younger person, well a person like [00:13:00] you, to hop into a Packard and take it around the track? And all I can say is, here’s the car, here are the keys, go for it. And I think once you do that, you just fall in love.

Crew Chief Eric: It’s so simple. And I will say from driving your super eight and I appreciate you letting me behind the wheel of that last year, the mechanics of it, because they were standardized by Cadillac much, much earlier than yours is a 37.

If I remember correctly, much earlier than that time period, it was simple. It was like driving a, Volkswagen from the two thousands. I just jump in and start driving. The only thing I found awkward was obviously this, uh, the suspension and the steering geometry itself with those long kind of forward trailing arms or tie rods to the front suspension.

You know, how much it took to actually maneuver the vehicle was a little bit surprising and it took some time to get used to, but, but taking off from a stoplight when the manual manual is a manual at the end of the day. I will say I found some things really interesting and very ahead of their time riding with various owners where it was like, [00:14:00] Oh, this has, you know, vacuum assisted semi automatic clutch and all these kinds of things and dials here on the steering wheel where I can adjust the timing and in advance and all these kind of things.

And I didn’t realize how complicated the older cars could be, but also the beauty and their simplicity. So there’s like this double edged sword there where you can, as you mentioned earlier, really geek out on them, but on the same token, you. You don’t want to shy away from them to go. Uh, well, it’s like a hundred years old Why do I even want to bother there’s there’s a lot there to dig into and unpack

Gunther Hoyt: Well, I mean I I grew up on bmw 2002s And I still love driving a 37 packer.

I mean, i’m i’m pretty versatile when it comes to cars. I i’ve had five audi tt so it’s it’s not like I uh I stayed with 1937 and i’m tied to it But the driving experience is very interesting because it’s got a relatively long wheelbase In my case, 134 inches, and it, it, it, it, it floats [00:15:00] through the curves.

I mean, once it sets itself, it’s pretty good. The line is, is good and it keeps the line. And the front suspension of a 37 Packard was pretty revolutionary. It’s independent. And it was considered so powerful. premium that Rolls Royce patented it for the Phantom 3, which was its premium 812 car. This suspension is fundamentally in its various forms still around today.

It hasn’t changed that much, especially with a stabilizer bar. Those cars stayed pretty flat on the road up front. It’s the rear where the car is quite basic with their rigid axles and, uh, and their springs. Some of the premium European cars actually did offer independent rear suspension. The premium Mercedes, the 500, 540ks did.

A horse with its premium cars also did. But that was not necessarily the standard or the norm. [00:16:00] Certainly not with Rolls Royce. But those were very limited edition cars, whereas Packard built 4, 000 Super 8s in 1937. Just a whole different dimension.

Crew Chief Eric: So one of the things that comes to mind often when we talk about modern cars, because you have to, we come from a different discipline, right?

Most of us on our side, though we branch out, a lot of us are grounded in circuit racing. And so we’re running production cars or GT cars or, you know, like touring cars on, on circuits. And it gets to a point where spec series racing changes from year to year because they phase cars out and they become unpopular.

And it all really revolves around parts scarcity. And we’ve seen that even in mass produced vehicles from let’s say the seventies and eighties, not necessarily American cars where there’s a huge backing for, you know, getting parts for your, your Mopar and your Chevy and whatnot, but a lot of the European cars, especially, you know, lower production, you know, sports cars, it’s getting harder and harder to find parts.

[00:17:00] And so that, that. Question comes up a lot when we talk about, you know, what car should I buy? So i’m going to propose the question to you Because I think that would be at the front end of someone’s thinking when they would be thinking about a classic car In the era that we’ve been talking about is how difficult is it to find parts?

To maintain the vehicles service them and things of that nature. What’s your your opinion on that?

Gunther Hoyt: Well I’m glad you asked that question, because I can answer it very quickly, having had to do a lot of part sourcing, or even helping friends source parts. In the case of Packard, the sheer volume of luxury car production made it very helpful.

I just posted a 1928 photograph this morning, and I was amazed that in 1928 Packard built 40, 000 premium luxury cars. The cheapest car was 2, 200 in 1928, which was a huge amount of money, okay? A worker made 1, [00:18:00] 000 in, in, in 1928. So, we have quite a few parts from, I would say, the late 20s and certainly from much of the 30s.

For our cars, quite a few of the parts were made by independent manufacturers, whether it’s AC or, or Delco, Ramey, Autolite, a lot of names that are still around today. And those, those parts, especially for carburetors and for Stromberg, for example, or, or for, for distributors, plugs, all those things are.

quite readily available. And then in the case of Packard, we have two really superb parts suppliers, Cantor Brothers in New Jersey and Max Merritt in Indiana. And Fred Bruner is the genius that has literally, you know, A mind like [00:19:00] a catalog, and you could call him up and say, Fred, here’s what I need, and he will say, if it’s not readily available in his database, he’ll say, give me 24 hours, and 24 hours later you get photographs of what he has.

gas pumps, for example, which are A. C. vacuum pumps, why you send in your old unit and he sends you a rebuilt unit. So much of this is send in the

Crew Chief Eric: core and get it rebuilt. And that’s a dying art form there because I think a lot of us probably have this mental image that, you know, you’re calling up this, this gentleman in Illinois and it’s, like an episode of American Pickers.

He’s going through 16 barns that are dilapidated trying to find parts, original parts for a packer. But it’s pretty organized.

Gunther Hoyt: Yeah, well that’s computerized. So is Cantor Brothers. And I’ve done, I’ve done a lot of business with both and they’re they’re just excellent. And then for the really hard to get stuff, why you will have to turn to somebody who has to hunt up an old part.

And then you have to get it refurbished. Sure. [00:20:00] There are certain years where it’s very hard to get a carburetor. Okay. Detroit lubricators are not as readily available. And when they are available, they will cost a serious amount of money. So a good, Platinum credit card doesn’t hurt .

Crew Chief Eric: It’s not, it’s not much different in the racing world.

Gunther Hoyt: I mean No, it’s not. Of course not. And if you own a Mercedes or A BMW, your dealer’s always grinning at you with three gold teeth

Crew Chief Eric: hundred and you paid for them. And in the modern cars we call that, you know, with the BMWs, we call it the M tax for like the M three and we had the portion exactly, of course the MT tax, I’m

Gunther Hoyt: sure.

So it’s a, I’m sorry. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a supply chain that’s really pretty good for Packard. Okay. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s really very good on top of that. Most good restoration shops that specialize in Packard, they’ll have parts. So there, there’s a great deal of trading going on. And if, if, uh, [00:21:00] Fred doesn’t have it, maybe Cantor Brothers does, or someone else who specializes in restoring Packards.

Last not least, we can’t forget Hershey, which covers the entire car world. And Hershey is the place of last resort, where you go with a picture of what you’ve got, or what you need, or you take your old part and you hunt for it. And frequently you’ll find it. If you don’t find it, uh, the first who’s somebody says go see joe over and on chocolate field and off your troop and you find it so I’ve i’ve Basically been very lucky.

Crew Chief Eric: I mean from the experiences that I had with you guys Especially going to the restoration shops and hearing all the stories. I found it To be very much more positive than what I’m used to where it seems like everyone in the classic car world seems to collaborate. They want to work together. They are very much more altruistic in the sense that they want to keep these cars on the road.

They want to keep them preserved. They’re willing to help each [00:22:00] other out in the racing world. It’s a little bit more me first in the gimme gimme. Where it’s like, well, I got this special part that makes me faster than you. And I don’t want to tell you where I got it from, you know, that kind of thing. So it’s, it’s, it’s very converse, uh, with respect to, to sharing of, of information now, granted, one of the, our premises is that specific cars that we cater to, we try to put out, build information where to source the parts.

You know, there’s really no recipe. I want to help you go faster. That’s part of my guarantee. So I, I aligned myself more with. With your guys mentality in that sense, but it was very much a breath of fresh air to, to see that firsthand when we went to all those different shops where they’re very much more.

Gunther Hoyt: What you just told me is a revelation to me because we’re just the opposite. Everybody tries to help everyone else truly. And folks are always, oh, let me check in the back. I might actually have something. Sure, they’ll say, look, you owe me a thousand bucks. Fine. Usually you’ll pay that if it’s [00:23:00] near and dear to you.

But my last experience, not to belabor a point, but sometimes a story like that is a good way to illustrate the point. Our cars have shutters that open automatically with a thermostat. And mine. My thermostat wasn’t working, so I called Fred. He said, look, Hunter, we, we’ve reproduced these, so there’s no core.

You know, give me 450 bucks, and I’ll send you a new one. That happens too.

Crew Chief Eric: There you go.

Gunther Hoyt: Certain high use parts are made new. So that,

Crew Chief Eric: And so that brings me to two more questions. The first one being, we’ll talk specifically about the Packard because you’re a resident expert. And I mean, I follow you on Instagram and if anybody wants to learn more about Packard’s follow at Gunther Hoyt on Instagram, he’s put, he posts every day.

I don’t even know where you get all the material from and it’s all very informative, but. I guess the question is, what are, what would you say are the top three or four things that fail in a classic car that you do have [00:24:00] to keep after season after season?

Gunther Hoyt: Well, I think the distributor cap is pretty critical just to keep the car properly running.

Fuel pump, distributor cap. I would say the rotors, I could get, I can get rotors for my car. and advanced auto.

Crew Chief Eric: Oh, wow. I

Gunther Hoyt: get the plugs that advance auto. They’re 10 millimeter, basically lawnmower plugs. Not that difficult. The rotor, the caps are always trickier. Okay. So you should always have a good cap and have one in, In reserve just in case without a cap.

You can’t drive the car You should you should have the parts with you that you need to drive the car. That’s really important

Crew Chief Eric: That is very similar to us I mean when we travel long distances to a track you bring half a car with you because you’re never sure Well, we don’t have to go that

Gunther Hoyt: far, but we do have to have The distributor has to be functioning frankly speaking.

I think the most important thing Otherwise is [00:25:00] to is to keep your carburetor Don’t wait until it, it craps out on you. I mean, do replace it fairly routinely so that it doesn’t start leaking suddenly on a critical tour. Number one, it’s a fire hazard. Number two, you will not drive your car. So, I would say some of these basic things you ought to change out every five years.

Just do it.

Crew Chief Eric: That’s a longer schedule than I thought. So every five years is not bad. Yeah. So that led me to my, the second part of my question, which was, and it sounds to me like in your case specifically, that you’re not a purist when it comes to, it needs to be a genuine Packard part or whatever it might be.

And I think that’s another fear in people’s minds is it has to be OE to be considered, you know, the pure, you know, the purest of the pure. And I’m sure there are purists out there, but. Is that really a concern or are there mods as what we would call in our world mods that are worth it? Things that you’ve seen that hey, they’ve redeveloped this part.

It’s really worth doing that upgrade as an example [00:26:00] Alan richards with the lebaron where he added the overdrive Because it was not a really great car to drive on a long tour. He needed the extra gear What do you think about modding these cars? Well,

Gunther Hoyt: my car has literally two modifications And I firstly, most of those I think are perfectly okay.

One is, I run it on radial tires. To me, that’s just common sense. The car handles better, it rides better, and it certainly stops better. So that’s just number one. Number two, my car has a distributor cap that is not the original Delco Raimi cap. Okay. And I, what I’m trying to say is the, the, the, the, the wire configuration is different, but it’s a cap that’s new and it’s off the shelf.

I have the original Delco Raimi with pins to, to lock the wires in, but I don’t use that when I’m driving, this is a traditional [00:27:00] suction cup. So those are the two things on my car where I would say, if you’re a judge, you might. Take offense, but if you’re judging the car today in the Classic Car Club, radial tires are now no longer penalized.

Crew Chief Eric: And that’s for, that’s judging for a Concours d’Elegance, basically.

Gunther Hoyt: If you give your cap, they would probably say, hmm, it’s a gray area. So that’s I won’t get stuck on the road.

Crew Chief Eric: Right. And then, and so there’s a, there’s a discussion there about reliability. So in this case, you, you’ve got two, I don’t want to call them disciplines, but you’ve got two things going on here.

You’ve got the touring and you’ve got the concourse. And obviously if you’re trying to win in concourse, you want to keep the car as period appropriate as possible, as original as possible, but let’s just talk about getting people back into this, into this genre of cars, into this discipline, and, If I wanted to buy a Packard for the street, are there certain things that you would just say, you know what?

I don’t care about concourse. These are the things I would do if I had my dream [00:28:00] Packard. I wanted to drive it every day What what would some be some tasteful things or some modifications that you could see doing? For a car that didn’t need to be in a concord.

Gunther Hoyt: Well Number one there are two ways to go about making the car run At more modern speeds one is to use an overdrive or in my case and that was another Modification I use A 345 to one instead of the traditional 445 or 404s or 409s were offered back then.

They were much higher revving rear ends. So my cars has a rear end that makes it much more leisurely to drive at 60, 65 miles an hour. And I bought it, by the way, from a master restorer named Phil Hill. Okay. Everyone knows Phil Hill because he really lived in both worlds, your world as a modern racer at a very, one of the best.

And he lived in the world of Packards [00:29:00] and p and, and Pierce Arrows, both of which he drove, uh, a lot and, and, uh, the Pierce one at Pebble Beach. Phil Hill had a foot in both camps and he definitely modified. His classics, and they did win first at Pebble with rear ends. No judge will ever know that anyway.

Crew Chief Eric: Yeah, they’re not taking it apart to figure out the dimensions and whatnot. Let me ask you this. I know you have a heavy bias towards Packards, and there’s the whole Packard No, go ahead, I No, no, no. There’s the whole Packard Cadillac discussion, which I do want to get into. Sure. But let me ask this question.

And I think I asked you this. I think I asked every owner on the tour. There’s some cars that people gravitate towards. There’s some they gravitate away from. So it’s another double edged question. A, if I was starting out in the classic car world, what is a good entry vehicle? that would give me the all around experience, and let’s, let’s put Packard’s to the side, something else, uh, good entry vehicle, and then, in your [00:30:00] opinion, vehicles to stay away from.

Gunther Hoyt: Well, I would jump on a, on a good Buick. They’re beautiful. They’re just beautifully styled. I, I, I think they’re much more affordable entries. No, the, the Buick would be a terrific place to start. I know that our friend, uh, Al Becker is a big Buick. Pro. He could probably tell you much more expertly, but I think the part supply is very, very good.

And General Motors made so many parts in their own subsidiaries, supply of critical ignition parts and Carburation. I’m sure that’s just as good as Packard. Cars to stay away from. Well, I’ll tell you what to stay away from, as beautiful as it may be, is anything that was made in very, very low. I would definitely, I’m sorry, I’m going to say something terrible.

Stay away from Kords and Auburn’s. Unless you’ve got limitless funds, because the part supply [00:31:00] is, is not that strong. Everything would have to be made custom, or you’d have to find it with a long, long, hard search. They’re difficult. The chords, especially the later ones, the Gordon Burek ones, they were not made in very large quantities.

Volume and they were never refined to be truly reliable. So those kinds of cars, they’re beautiful, but they’re hard to maintain. And if you’re going to get into the hobby, get something that won’t kill you. Don’t kill your pocketbook. And the fun to me is driving. So if you buy a car that always breaks down or always has an issue or can’t be driven because you can’t find the part

Crew Chief Eric: that could kill the hobby in a hurry.

Yeah. To your point, I mean, having driven your 37 Super 8 and having been in Alan’s 37 Cadillac Coupe, which Matthew, one of our members, wrote about, and you’ve met Matthew as [00:32:00] well, both cars were surprisingly modern in terms of their driving style, their capabilities, their amenities, and Once I got used to being around them, it made, it made all the sense in the world.

Now, obviously like the later Fleetwoods and things that were on tour with us, those were great. Riding with Bob and his 32 sport, I think it was or 35. I can’t remember off the top of my head now. That was an interesting, that was more of a sports car in comparison to what you and Al Becker had and what Richard has, et cetera.

I think one of the other warnings was don’t go near anything with a weird engine, like, and I’m not trying to call anybody out, but something as an example, like the night engine and people that don’t know what that is, go look it up online. There was a lot of experimenting back then. And to your point, you want to, you want to stay closer to something common with a larger part supply behind it.

Gunther Hoyt: The, the, the night is a, is is a very good case in point. It’s, that’s sort of a little bit of a cult car and yeah, it, it, it’s, it’s, it [00:33:00] may be charming, but it’s really not that good for a tour car, uh, where you and I like to drive to my tours. So I, I, I have 300 miles behind me before I get there, . And, uh, so the car has to be good.

It’s got to take me and get me back home. And it’s got to do that in a fairly good rapid clip. Otherwise I’ll be three days getting up to Middleburg, which I certainly didn’t do that day. I came up in four hours, so I’m driving at a good, healthy clip. I would say you want a car that was made in some volume and had all the bugs ironed out in its day.

Because if it didn’t, those bugs are going to get twice as Bad in the modern era where the part supply is zero and you can’t get good mechanics to work on them. I mean It’s it’s hard to get a guy to work on a night engine at this point.

Crew Chief Eric: Oh, absolutely So let’s let’s step back a minute. Let’s talk about [00:34:00] cadillac versus packard Those are the two mainstays in the classic car world both produce some very high level very luxurious prestige Tegis vehicles.

Give me pros and cons of each. And I know you’re, I know what you’re, you’re going to lean towards the Packard, but still let’s pros and cons of each. No,

Gunther Hoyt: no, I mean, I, I think Cadillac, once it made its mind up that it was going to be a serious contender for the top luxury car. did it in a, in a brilliant way with its, uh, V, V 12 primarily and its V 16, and those cars were gorgeous.

I mean, there’s no denying that they were stunning, stunning cars. What is interesting is that Packard remained so dominant, especially once it also brought out the big V 12, until 1940. And after that, Cadillac put its foot down and roared away. I, I think. The sheer clout of General Motors back in Cadillac eventually [00:35:00] made itself felt.

How are the cars in terms of driving? Well, gee, I’ve driven a 60 Special, a Fleetwood 60 Special, that was just fun to drive and very modern, beautifully restored, and it was just a real good, solid, fun car to drive. I have a friend here in Salem, Virginia, right down here where I live, he has a V16. Well, that car almost never gets out because it’s, number one, it’s way too big.

It’s a 34 and it’s got a 154 inch wheelbase. So that’s just beyond big. I think that’s longer than one of Hitler’s big 770ks to give you some sense of comparison. And the engine is, that’s a pretty complex vehicle. Engine the v16. We had one on the tour last spring Uh keeping that on the road keeping it firing.

Just right. That’s a handful. Is it gorgeous? Oh, yeah tremendous That’s a little [00:36:00] too much. I think a v12 cadillac is pretty good If you have a good healthy budget a v12 cadillac is beautiful and it’s a lovely car to drive That would be my take on what I would buy if I was in the market not such a big styling fan after 36.

Then they started to look a little too modern for me, but the early ones around 31, 32, 33. God, they’re beautiful. I’m not at all 200 percent Packard. I got an eye out for a good looking Cadillac.

Crew Chief Eric: Earlier episode of the show, which hopefully you’ll listen to when it, when it actually airs, we talked about, uh, V8 convertibles.

And at one point we were suggesting, you know, starter V8 convertibles. We were looking at cars actually under 50, 000. And on that list, surprisingly enough, you have drop top V8. With or without a manual didn’t matter. You have vehicles like 55 Ford Thunderbird showing up Pontiac Catalina, stuff like that.

And one of the people that was on the discussion actually mentioned, [00:37:00] well, yeah, you could do a Packard Caribbean as well. And so there’s a disconnect there. I think historically where people think of, you know, The Packard it’s, you know, the luxurious kind of gangster car, if you’re going to draw a parallel and then these, you know, early kind of malt shop bebop, you know, early rock and roll convertibles.

So kind of summarize for us, like the history of Packard and how it got there and what inevitably happened, if you don’t mind.

Gunther Hoyt: Sure. Packard was the coach built car of choice in the in the U. S. And then it became, and this decision was made pretty early on, it was one of the export leaders for the premium cars.

Unlike, say, Pierce Arrow or Cadillac, the export division at Packard made damn sure that this car got exported in larger numbers than any other luxury car to all corners of the globe, whether it was China or Japan or Australia, New [00:38:00] Zealand, Europe, very strong exporter early on and stayed that way. It’s interesting that Joseph Stalin drove a 12.

Okay, as one example, the King of Jordan drove a 12, the King of Egypt drove a 12, the Field Marshal Mannerheim in Finland drove a 12 cylinder Packard. Oh, the King of the Belgians drove a Super 8. Okay, so, point being, there were an awful lot of Packards being driven. The Emperor of Japan drove a V12.

Packard convertible sedan and a Packard limousine. V12, 1937. We’ve got to find those two cars because I think they’re in the Imperial Garage. But the point being, Packard was the premium car of choice. I’m amazed they didn’t sell one to Mussolini, but He drove a Fiat. They certainly got around, okay? And Tchaikovsky had Packard.

It was a strong leader of the world. After the [00:39:00] war, I think Packard got off to a slow start. Clipper ran for two years and it was a great car, but then Packard somehow hopped the tracks and tried to be a mass produced car without the money. You can say what you want. I always say what killed Packard was they lost the prestige market.

Once Hollywood switched to a 300 SL, for example, you know, there was a photo of Clark Gable and Gary Cooper and Sophia Loren and, uh, Yul Brenner and everybody driving around the 300 SL. Packard had lost the position that it had in the 30s. Once it lost that, even the Caribbean, which was pretty neat car, and it could have been modified to make it better and better, who was driving it?

Doctors and lawyers and businessmen, but not Ewell Brenner, not Clark Gable, not the trendsetters. Once that happened, Packard didn’t have the money to be a competitor to [00:40:00] Cadillac in the mass produced luxury car. Mercedes Benz took over Hollywood, and that was a slot Packard had. And Cadillac had, and that’s the same thing that killed Cadillac in the end, was they gave up the premium, the trendsetter market.

P8, straight A, and all that silly stuff. If you, if you lose the trendsetter market, you lose your premium pole position.

Crew Chief Eric: So who would you say is the premium pole sitter today?

Gunther Hoyt: Oh, good Lord. I would say, uh, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini certainly have that slot in the, in the super exotics. That means that.

Mercedes, I didn’t mention them. They really don’t have a car, uh, that competes at that level. Then, of course, you’ve got some pretty nice Bentley Jag offerings, but I would say Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti are the

Crew Chief Eric: Oh, you wouldn’t offer the crown to Rolls Royce? It’s still [00:41:00] standing after all these years?

Gunther Hoyt: No.

Crew Chief Eric: That’s okay. It doesn’t have to be a yes. But I was just throwing it out there.

Gunther Hoyt: It’s I think the demographics are not

Crew Chief Eric: in their favorite

Gunther Hoyt: center has to be A sex symbol of some kind. Okay, a 70 year old driving a rolls royce is not a sex symbol Okay, I don’t give a damn what

Crew Chief Eric: anybody says. Yeah, I got you. I got you.

I agree

Gunther Hoyt: A lovely bentley lovely car. It’s perfect. But it’s it’s not the

Crew Chief Eric: trendsetter Jumping back to part of something you said before, during the war, a lot of auto manufacturers turned towards supporting the war. You know, Ford was making all sorts of armaments and tools and things and sending supplies over.

So, what did Packard contribute to the war effort?

Gunther Hoyt: Well, Packard had, uh, actually, probably the most important contribution. They took the, uh, the Rolls Royce. engine, the Merlin, and made it a high produced [00:42:00] engine. Thousands of engineering changes to make that happen. But then the Merlin engine and the Mustang fighter won the war.

I mean, it, it was the mass produced high speed fighter that could finally knock them out. Uh, out of the sky and then on the ocean, the PT boats were powered by Packard’s, big v twelves, marine engines. So Packard was a, I would say the engine producer of choice for the highest speed machines in the war machine.

Crew Chief Eric: And were those still in lines or were they vs. When was the switch? Oh,

Gunther Hoyt: there were vs vs. When was the switchover for Packard officially. Well, the V 12, Packard invented the V 12 in the 1916 model year, and that was called the Twin 6. And that Twin 6 is what a man named Enzo Ferrari looked at, and a man named Ito Bugatti looked at, although Bugatti switched to the straight engine, and [00:43:00] Ferrari went to the V engine.

Point is, Both are today considered the, the geniuses of exotic out there design, but Packard actually was the, uh, their, their,

Crew Chief Eric: their touchstone. If you could have any three cars from the classic era outside of your Super 8, no money, no object, what would they be?

Gunther Hoyt: A classic era? Oh, I, I, I would, uh, I definitely want to have an open Pierce Arrow.

I might actually have one of the big V12 Lincolns. So it

Crew Chief Eric: sounds like you’re a convertible fan, and yet you drive a coupe. How does that work? Well, because I drive a lot.

Gunther Hoyt: I would love to have a convertible, but I’m at this point, budget and everything else, uh, lifestyle, one car, person, and I’ve got it just right.

But it would be fun to have a convertible or even share it with someone. A convertible is kind of a fun thing to have. However, they have their issues and probably [00:44:00] just a lot easier to hitch a ride with somebody in a convertible.

Crew Chief Eric: There you go. So let’s flip the coin three cars from the modern era if that you would want to have well What’s your definition of modern?

I’m gonna start with 1980 forward where we have fuel injection proper electronic fuel injection forward We’ll go with that.

Gunther Hoyt: Okay. Well, I was a real big Audi TT fan, so I probably flopped back into one of those and Yeah, there’s fun car. Now. Yeah, you’ve challenged me Um, I, I drive an Audi in my modern car, probably a, uh, maybe a Mercedes Coupe,

Crew Chief Eric: you know, just to shake it up a little bit.

Very nice. Of all the Packards, and there’s a lot of them, a lot of different variants, the Super, the Speed, this, that, the Convertible, the Phaeton, etc. Which one’s the best? Of the Packards? Of all of them, from the beginning to the end, which one’s the best?

Gunther Hoyt: Yeah, well, the most reliable and, and, and, and elegant and, and, uh, mechanically interesting.

Oh, I would [00:45:00] say 37 was kind of a nice year because the styling on the seniors was particularly beautiful. I mean, I picked it for a reason. I picked it because it had hydraulic brakes and it had independent front suspension. It was a little less, um, humongous. 134 wheelbases is to say 139 or 143. I mean, that’s a lot of wheelbase to, to try to park in a modern setting.

So you, I would say a 37 coupe roadster, whether it’s a 12 or a super eight.

Crew Chief Eric: You know, when we go backwards from 1980, color was a big influencer in terms of style, look, sex appeal, as you, as you put it out there. So what would you say are, you know, really strong go to colors for a classic car and what are colors to avoid altogether?

Gunther Hoyt: Well, um, I happen to have a 37 brochure and, and, and if you look at the very, very lively color schemes of the twenties, [00:46:00] And they ran up into 31, 32. There was a dramatic shift in, in going from multicolor schemes in the twenties to solo colors. In the thirties, in 37, for example, there was a metallic gold that was offered and there was a very beautiful dark.

silver gray that was offered and straight silver. So metallics were offered all through the 30s. And then of course, Packard Blue being Midnight Blue, very dark, black, ivory beige, Chinatown, the movie, that was an ivory blue. Packard with red leather interior. Come on. I mean, that’s Hollywood. That’s glamour.

So those, that was certainly a very popular color combination. And there was one on our tour. The Dukes had an ivory Packard. The colors to avoid, well, dark colors need a lot of cleaning and shining and polishing. And everything shows, and birds love it. So I [00:47:00] happen to have a Packard blue because I like it, but it does.

Take a lot of cleaning and fussing. The metallic

Crew Chief Eric: colors are beautiful. Can’t duck that. They’re pretty. Looking into, let’s say, the cars from the 60s and 70s, I am not a big fan of those, what I call Bianchi greens, or what people would call like a seafoam green, all those pastels. Those just don’t do it for me.

I mean, I’m, I’m a very, You know, the GTI came in four colors, silver, black, red, and white. That those are my go to, I’ve just heard from certain people that certain colors are to be avoided, some yellows and some oranges, and even the Packards I’ve seen in the classic cars I’ve seen you post on Instagram, I, there’s just been some that I’ve, I’ve showed them to my wife and she’s like, Oh my God, that car is absolutely gorgeous.

And they’re usually the darker metallic color. So I will definitely be there.

Gunther Hoyt: Packard had some, some colors that I, I would, would not, uh, I posted a car on Sunday, Fernandez and Darin, uh, Darin, uh, big convertible sedan with, with a light [00:48:00] brown, tan brown and, and darker brown fenders. I’m not a big fan of brown.

Crew Chief Eric: That’s the downside. I hate to say if Alan Richards is listening, that’s the downside to his LeBaron. I’m not a fan of that color.

Gunther Hoyt: Of that a color. Hi Allen. Yeah, that, that, well, that’s exactly his color and no, that, that LeBaron has colors that I’m not that fond of. I like his yellow. That’s kind of a peppy car.

Mm-Hmm. . That, that. I like that. That’s, that’s fine. I mean, the LeBaron is a totally real color, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not the one I would have on a car.

Crew Chief Eric: Alright. With that, I think my wrap up question for you is, is there anything, motor sports, cars, Packard, whatever. That you just want to share an antidote one of your best stories that you’d like to share with everybody.

I think the

Gunther Hoyt: The most fun i’ve ever had truly is is that lime rock? Run where we were on the track and I was in this 20 29 coupe roadster black i’ll send you a picture of it and it was just a [00:49:00] ball I mean, we took it around at a pretty good clip and it gives you the feeling of 1929 at speed That was pretty damn good

Crew Chief Eric: That’s pretty

Gunther Hoyt: cool.

Um, I would say that that was pretty special. I’ve been in some fun cars on some fun terrain, but that that was definitely one of them. And that car was in good shape, so nothing was going to fall off. It’s always a plus. I was just about to say.

Crew Chief Eric: All right. And on that note, like we said before, you can find Find Gunther on Instagram.

He posts daily, if not more constant, you know, stream of information, especially with Packard’s he’s at Gunther Hoyt. Is there anywhere else people can find you or find out more information about classic cars, et cetera?

Gunther Hoyt: Oh, that’s it. That’s where I keep it

Crew Chief Eric: simple. And it’s the classic car club of america dot com website.

That’s correct. That’s correct. Well, Gunther, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your story, taking an hour out of your day to talk with us. I’m sure the listeners will [00:50:00] have tons of questions. We’re going to post a picture of that 29 Packard when you get it to us. It’ll be along with the show notes, etc.

And if you have more questions for Gunther, we’ll definitely get them to you and see what he says. But thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. This was a lot of fun. Take care. Bye now. Bye bye.

Crew Chief Brad: If you like what you’ve heard and want to learn more about GTM, be sure to check us out on www. gtmotorsports. org. You can also find us on Instagram Also, if you want to get involved or have suggestions for future shows, you can call or text us at 202 630 1770, or send us an email at crewchief at gtmotorsports.

org. We’d love to hear from you.

Crew Chief Eric: Hey listeners, Crew Chief Eric here. Do you like what you’ve seen, heard, and read? Great, so do we, and we have a lot of fun doing it, but please remember, we’re fueled by volunteers and remain a no annual fee organization, but we still need help to keep [00:51:00] the momentum going so that we can continue to record, write, edit, and broadcast all of your favorite content.

So be sure to visit www. patreon. com forward slash GT motor sports, or visit our website and click in the top right corner on the support and donate to learn how you can help. Can help.

Skip ahead if you must… Here’s the highlights from this episode you might be most interested in and their corresponding time stamps.

• 00:00 Introduction to Break/Fix Podcast
• 00:29 Meet Gunther Hoyt: Classic Car Enthusiast
• 00:37 Exploring Road Rally and Touring
• 01:53 The Charm of Classic Car Tours
• 05:33 Restoration Shops and Their Impact
• 07:14 Defining a Classic Car
• 10:55 Challenges and Joys of Classic Car Ownership
• 17:04 Parts Sourcing and Maintenance
• 25:25 Modifications and Modernizations
• 28:32 Phil Hill’s Influence on Classic Cars
• 29:26 Choosing the Right Classic Car: Entry Vehicles and Pitfalls
• 33:58 Cadillac vs. Packard: A Deep Dive
• 37:29 Packard’s Global Influence and Post-War Decline
• 44:03 Modern Classics and Color Choices
• 48:34 Memorable Moments and Final Thoughts

Consider becoming a GTM Patreon Supporter and get behind the scenes content and schwag!